interfacelab

Avatar

Fuck 37Signals and Their Bourgeois Bullshit

37Signals can go fuck themselves. There I said it and I feel better now.

Their last two postings about their workflow are heaping helpings of not awesomeness. Their latest post, Designers Should Do Their Own HTML, is such complete near-sighted garbage I can’t help but to laugh at the cling-ons sucking the shit up in the comments.

In summary, they suggest that designers do their own HTML/CSS. This is so completely laughable I am not even sure how to respond. But, before I do, let me give you a little of my own background so you can understand where I’m coming from: I started out in the game roughly 15 years ago, give or take, doing multimedia/kiosk and eventually moving into the web around the time Netscape 3 was released. I’ve been doing web related ever since then. I’ve worked at small agencies, gargantuan agencies, start ups, big soulless pharmas and everywhere in-between. I’ve been an art director, an html monkey, a back end warrior – and have even done such obscure things as writing control software for elevators and music sequencers for the desktop.

Their last blog entry essentially posits that designers should do their own HTML/CSS. They theorize that it’ll learn those pesky designers on the limitations of HTML/CSS and – thus – design accordingly. They also hint that it’ll save time in the workflow. It totally explains why all of their stuff looks like it does, which is not to say that it looks bad, but perhaps not as good as it could be or should be. It is clean and functional, but lacks personality and I’d be hard pressed to call any of it innovative in any sense of the word.

Back during bubble one, we used to call front-end developers Design Technologists. They were the bridge between the designers and the backend, translating comps into workable front-end code and then integrating that front-end code with whatever madness the back end cooked up. Design is a very specific skill set, it’s about visual communication. The designer is responsible for taking a bucket load of information and not only showing it to the user in a way that makes sense, but also in a way that is usable and aesthetically pleasing. To shackle them to HTML/CSS, which is it’s own very specific skill set, it constricting and limiting and has nothing to do with design at all. Would you prefer someone that excels at one particular skill set, or someone that is simply marginal in both? I’m not sure about you, but I want my designer/user experience person to focus on the one thing they excel at. If they want to take a crack at doing some HTML/CSS, good for them, but I don’t expect anything of value from it because I have sharpshooting front-end people with brains who understand that design comps aren’t literal and know – or should know – how to deal with whatever the designer/UX throws at them.

Furthermore, that little save in the workflow will come around and fuck you when all that html/css is thrown out the window by someone who is actually skilled in html/css and sees it for what it is. Honestly, I don’t see any save in time here at all. Developing HTML/CSS is tedious enough as it is, to add in the task of doing design with it on the fly is just plain mentally retarded if you want to approach visuals that go beyond the simplistic shit. Why does everything have to look like a wireframe with window dressing? Where has the innovation gone?

No other communication industry does it this way. In the print world it is retarded to assume that your designers are going to crank out press ready layouts, that shit almost always goes through someone skilled in pre-press production – the technical equivalent of an html/css jockey. Designers don’t need to know about the mundane like printing screens, trapping, overprinting, color separations.

And then, what the fuck to do about flash/silverlight/SVG/HTML5? Going to have to rejigger that workflow fellas because now the skillset on either side is to broad to expect more than a handful of individuals to do well at both. UI is only going to get more complicated from here on out. Feels better to me to be prepared for that eventuality than to cross that bridge when it comes to it, but maybe because I’ve been there before and understand that each innovation in client technology requires both disciplines to up their games.

Finally, 37signals doesn’t even do client work nor do they really take heed from their paying customers. Their sites and their products are also relatively small compared to the rest of the web where this kind of discussion is applicable. I suppose if you’re cranking out small apps like 37signals than their advice might be golden, but honestly I think it’ll be a nightmare for them down the road when someone less lazy eclipses their simplistic product offerings with something deeper and richer.

[Slashdot] [Digg] [Reddit] [del.icio.us] [Facebook] [Technorati] [Google] [StumbleUpon]
1 Star2 Stars3 Stars4 Stars5 Stars (10 votes, average: 4.1 out of 5)
Loading ... Loading ...
  • I agree in part. All of their paid apps are pricey for what you get. I believe it is very possible to offer much more for that price without making the product much more complicated or appreciably more difficult to use. I think they are way overhyped and are overhyping a story that a lot of managers and customers want to hear.
  • marcus@marcusk.co.uk
    This is an old post, but I'm wading in anyway:
    Surely the concept that form follows function is relevant here. Modernism and Bauhaus, the taproot of much contemporary design, started working with the medium itself as the expression itself. Painters abandoned perspective and illusion in favour of texture and material.
    Ignorance of the medium you're working in is counter-intuitive to everything we've been taught about art and craftsmanship.
  • Stew
    Essentially, I agree with you. I've always been a jack of all trades, with an eye for design. As such, doing everything from concepts to photoshop to html/css to JS -- the overall product is "good" across the board, but by no means spectacular. Honestly, I don't have enough time or brain power to be innovative within any of the individual segments.

    With that being said, I'm scratching my head at your usage of the word "bourgeois" in the title of your post. This is the word Russian communist revolutionaries used to refer to capitalists.
  • Erik R
    Yeah, I like 37 Signals but they're talking out of their butts on that one. If anything, front end devs need to take a more active role in design without interfering with the visual portion of it. At the end of the day it's our skills that set the bar on what's possible and if you have a decent front end dev, that bar is higher than you probably realize because he tends to get left out of the proper meetings. Everything passes through our work at one point or another and we're the ones constantly tweaking and reloading the apps until they check out in everything. You start to make observations and develop opinions after a while. Much better ones than IAs or "UX Engineers" who don't know a lick of HTML ever will.

    In any case, brains that can come up with deceptively simple but brilliant logos and brains that can make it all look the same in IE 6, IE 7, Safari, and Firefox when it has rows that stretch in different places at different levels rarely occupy the same space.
  • Joe
    they build cool apps -- you write angry rants ... I wonder which one has more credibility.
  • The are not that cool. Basecamp is a joke for real project management. Not even so much as subtasks much less niceties like task dependencies. Backpack can only produce a few types of simplistic document. Not that great for the $$ per month. It does give me a lot of hope that 37signals can be very successful with apps this simple though.
  • hiester
    I recently did some work with a really terrific designer who tried writing his own HTML and CSS. He ended up with loads of <font> tags, absolutely positioned divs all over the place and nested divs as bad as your worst nested tables nightmare. Believing that designers can learn HTML and CSS by learning which tags to type and simple instructions like "no tables" is like believing you can write a Nobel prize-winning novel simply by pressing the right keys in the right sequence. OK, that's stretching it a bit, but the idea is that HTML and CSS have a history and context and if you don't know where ideas like semantic markup and progressive enhancement come from, then you're not going to be successful at coding usable HTML and CSS. As you noted, it is a skill set on its own.
  • I love this post. I stopped reading the 37 signals blog 2 years ago. If 37 signals was actually good at what they do then Backpackit & Basecamp wouldn't be so completely useless. The real reason why they want their designers to code is because they are lazy, arrogant, and cheap.

    I *am* a designer who can code HTML & CSS very well (thank you) and it sucks! I don't enjoy it. I'm slow at it. And all it does is keep me from doing my best work. What I've learned over the years is this. Very few people actually want to do this job, so why not dump it on the designer? It's hard to find good front end developers, so why not dump the work on the designer? I've seen companies give in to this false perception of efficiency simply to save some money, and bully designers into doing work they are not suited for. Attitudes like that of 37 signals just cultivates a hostile work environment for designers.

    To anybody who expects designers to code, let me ask you a few questions... How does your design ever get better if your designers are not actually doing design work? How do you have a career as a designer if you don't actually do design work? Is your product or end-user actually benefiting from all that coding you are making your designer do? Or are you just too cheap (or ignorant) to hire the right kind of people? Are you too lazy to plan the right kind of process? Do you even understand what design is?

    You have to ask what is wrong with e.j. ... Why does a designer's work have to be "seriously beautiful" before you value them as a professional? How retarded! What about "seriously useful" or "seriously meaningful".
  • DMC
    Thank fuck for you. Seriously, I was beginning to think the world was going mad. I'm a creative designer, and I used to work in Flash until actionscript became a proper programming language. I write my own html and css, but only because I find them relatively easy. I'd prefer not to.

    You're absolutely right. People should be single skillers.
    It cuts the wheat from the chaff so to speak.
    Sure, there are truckloads of people out there who can "do a bit of everything", but they usually suck a bit at everything too.
    The turning point for me was when I started a new position as a senior designer, and was told they expected me to "pick up actionscript 3 and the flex framework in 4 weeks". I'd told them explicitly that I don't do development, and as I'm sure you know, a lot of companies out there like to act as though actionscript or anything front-end, is somehow NOT development. Well, they can go fuck themselves. Hear hear!
  • e.j.
    i HATE to agree with 37s. but i buy their line a bit here.

    i think that early in the innovation curve, newish products are going to be tackled by small teams of cross discipline peeps.

    designers doing html, flash, c++ or whatever.

    things tend to specialize later on. nothing wrong w this. early print designers did do their own press stuff, now its all specialized and lotsa print designers are not even going to see a press.

    sure when teams get big the easiest way to split them up is to have 50 specialists instead of 50 generalists. but when that number is 3-5, thats not necessarily the best.

    things can go full circle too, when things once considered "technical" become mundane. think of all the old school CEO's that cant even use computers, that wouldn't fly today.

    anyways, i personally have no love for designers that can't do some codin unless they can make some seriously beautiful shit.
  • Whatever happened to the idea of specialist freelancers joining and leaving teams on an as needed basis? There is way too much out there to be even moderately on top of all of it. So your product is going to suck in various ways in each and every way where your skills are not at al up to date. You think it will not make a difference just because you get to market faster? That isn't true for very long unless you have some kind of lock in. I believe that each one of the 37signal products could be knocked out of the market with a 50% better product at the same price. They are vulnerable if they don't innovate from here.
blog comments powered by Disqus